PRIMATE, CHURCH OF NIGERIA

Archbishop Nicholas Okoh, the Primate of the Church of Nigeria, is one man who is not afraid to speak his mind. The cleric, 60, who hails from Owa-Alero in Delta State, is known for being blunt and forthright. But at the moment, he has fears for the nation. Okoh, who fought in the 30-month civil war to keep Nigeria one, believes the country is undergoing debilitating crisis as a result of the Boko Haram insurgency.

But he is optimistic that the nation would come out of it intact. 'All it takes is for those who are sponsoring Boko Haram to withdraw in the interest of the overall destiny of Nigeria. But, certainly, if they do not withdraw and they continue to sponsor their own interest over and above everybody, then sectional interest cannot win the day.

Sectional interest is evil. It will certainly lead the country to where it does not desire.' In this interview in Abuja, Archbishop Okoh also speaks on the difficulty in leading the Anglican Church, which he says is quite challenging.

Excerpts:
Since September 15, 2009, you have been in the saddle as the Primate of the Anglican Church of Nigeria. How has it been leading the flock of God?

I was elected in September, but I didn't assume office until March 25, 2010. I want to say that even though I thought I knew it would be tough, I didn't quite have the full picture of how it was going to look like. I think it is tougher than I thought, but God has been very gracious in terms of good health, in terms of safety in all the travels, because it involves a lot of travelling: in the air, on road and so on and so forth. And then, sitting down for seemingly endless meetings. So, it is not easy. And then, cracking very difficult subjects with a lot of arguments. So, I think that it has been a very tough time. But I thank God that one has not broken down in terms of health.

Are there other issues that make your position hot?

Of course. Dealing with human beings is a Herculean task. Human beings are human beings whether you are dealing with bishops or you are dealing with Church members. They have their own views on any particular issue and especially that our Church tends to be democratic. There is no question of autocratic ruling.

In the Anglican Church?
Yes.
That is different from Catholicism…
I don't know about that because in our own system, issues are to be discussed.

Democratically?
Yes. And discussed in the House of Bishops, in the House of Clergy and in the House of Laity. And it is the aggregation of these views that will lead you to a decision.

Particularly, what are the issues that make the seat hot for you?

One, we had come into office at a time when Nigeria was very unstable. So, that also has its own aspect.

I mean within the Anglican Communion…
Within the Anglican Church, we have been grappling with the issues beyond our shores. That is, the homosexual issue. That is part of it, with our brothers outside the country who do not share our views and our teaching. Also, we have our internal issues bordering on ethnicity, tribalism and so on and so forth.

All these things are important. You have to make sure the Church remains one to carry everybody together. And you know that Nigeria is a diverse country. The way the Igbo man will see things is different from the way the Yoruba man will see things. The same thing you can say of the people from the Northern part of the country. To be able to merge all these views and get a consensus and be able to move forward is really a Herculean task.

So, how do you reconcile these issues, most importantly, the issue of homosexuality?

There is nothing to reconcile. The important thing is that we have adopted a position and we stand there. Anybody who wants to relate with us, he knows that this is the view of the Church of Nigeria. It is either you accept it or you leave us alone.

Sometime ago, precisely July 2009, in a sermon in Beckenham, Kent, you made statements which suggested that Africa was under attack from Islam and that Muslims were mass-producing children to take over communities on the continent. Taking a look at what is happening now in Nigeria as a result of the Boko Haram insurgency, would you say that your statement is being fulfilled?

I have said over and over again that the Boko Haram attack could have a religious foundation but essentially, my view is that it is being used by politicians. If you remember, before the government came into power, some people boasted that they would make the government ungovernable.

Yes. There was a group of people who boasted that they would make the country ungovernable. I think that is just what we are experiencing because, if you are the president, it will be really difficult for you to govern very well under the insecurity level we are facing today. Every day, you make one effort and before you finish that, you are told that 20 people have been killed, 10 people have been killed, five people have been killed either by gunmen and then, bomb explosion in Jos, bomb explosion all over the country, in the Church.

So, you can see that they tried other things and they discovered that they were not succeeding in provoking people enough, so they are now concentrating on the Church, with the hope that if they continue bombing the Church, the Christians may be tempted to go on a reprisal attack. I think, for me, what they are looking for is a total breakdown of law and order.

Some Nigerians are of the opinion that the president has not been tough on the issue. What is your take on that?

I don't share that, for very obvious reasons. You see, when you have something pinching you in your eyes, you necessarily have to be careful. If you don't pick it out carefully, you blind your eyes. For one thing, as the president, he took an oath to preserve Nigeria, the unity of the country. If he is not careful, the country will break in his hands and if the country breaks in his hands, his name will go down in history as the one who destroyed the entity called Nigeria. So, I think he is being particularly careful to ensure that he is able to manage the situation. He's doing everything to be able to offer the leadership he promised to give to Nigerians.

You spoke about provocation and reprisal attack by Christians. Do you foresee any reprisal attack soon on the part of Christians?

The Christians are highly disciplined people, particularly from the point of view of what they believe in. They are not very eager to kill. It is not part of Christianity to take up cutlass and begin to slaughter people or to cut their neck or to take pistol and shoot or go round innocent villages and begin to kill. It is not part of their way of life. It might happen in very extreme cases but as a coordinated approach to issue, it will not happen.

What is your reaction to the withdrawal by the Datti Ahmad group from the negotiation table?

Many people have different views about negotiating with terrorists. A terrorist is like a blackmailer. He is never satisfied. So, all we can do is to pray. If the negotiation brings peace, to God be the glory. But we do have our doubt because the people who are gaining from it will not like to stop it. Remember that some people are behind it and they will not like to stop. They are only trying to gain time.

So, there is really not a serious negotiation. There are two things that the Boko Haram has made very clear: they want to Islamise Nigeria. What is there to negotiate? They want to beg them to Islamise a part and leave some parts? They have also said that they don't like Western education. Are you going to close down the universities and secondary schools, close down all forms of education?

So, these are the issues that we don't know. The issue of economic marginalisation is a new development. It was not there before now. It didn't, in fact, come from the Boko Haram. It is the political elite of the North who have brought that subject. It is not the Boko Haram that has brought it, except they now say that they are speaking for the Boko Haram. But from the beginning, the issues of money, economic pauperisation were not there, because the whole of Nigeria is poor.

So, to say that the insurgency is as a result of the mass poverty in the North is a no-issue?

For me, it is a new subject. It was not there before. The people had two main issues they were demanding: Islamisation and no Western education. But the new addition is the brainchild of Northern politicians.

In that case, do you think there is need for the Federal Government to negotiate with the group?

The Federal Government is already negotiating. They don't take dictation from anybody.

But what is your personal assessment of the negotiation?

I don't know how far they can go. But my view is that if the discussion is intelligent and reasonable and it can lead to permanent peace without compromising the neutrality of Nigeria in religion…what I mean is that Nigeria should not adopt any particular religion, no part of Nigeria should be allowed to adopt a particular religion and also, the issue of education should not be affected. If it is all about the general struggle in Nigeria over poverty, then that is the main duty of government and not for a particular section of the country because the government of this country, if you check the leadership, the North has had more than a fair share in the governance of this country.

So, who is to be blamed for the poverty? Who is to be blamed? And if you check the situation as it is now, there is poverty in the North-East, in the North-West, in the North-Central, in the South-South, in the South-East and in the South-West. If you go to Lagos, for instance, you will see a large number of people roaming about and living under bridges. So, how can you single out only one area and say that poverty is so high here? There is no employment in the country and if there is employment in the country, there is Federal Character. They don't just employ people from one area. So, the argument of poverty, to me, is not intelligible.

Taking a look at the whole scenario, do you see the Boko Haram insurgency fading away soon?

Terrorism does not fade away so easily like that. Terrorism is not a 100-metre dash. It is a long-distance race. It is a marathon. So, the government should be prepared to be patient in handling it and in being up and doing, because if it is a question of people just attacking people, you can handle it. But remember that they have local and international connection. They have local and international interest and it is not the actors, but the perpetrators behind them, who have permanent interest to protect. They are talking about politics now. The government is barely a year in the seat and they are already talking of 2015. So, as long as political issues are there, insurgency will be there.

Why do you think it is taking the president a long time to deal with the perpetrators?

I think he wants to be sure that there are no extra-judicial killings. You know we live in a civilised world today. If anybody is hurt without following the due process of trial, then the whole world will cry out that this government does not maintain human rights, this government does not do this and that.

You will remember that even those who have been arrested and they said they were killed by the police, if it is found out that they were killed or hurt without proper trial, it becomes a major issue. You can be dragged to the International Court at The Hague for man's inhumanity to man. I think he wants to maintain a government that is credible; a government that the international community can trust, that will not go beyond the legal limit.

Some Nigerians also believe that the rebellion by the group is mainly against the Jonathan presidency. Do you also share this view?

It depends on the way you look at it. If you look at it as a religious sect that has run haywire…, breaking away from the mainstream Islamic body, because as you can see, it is said that Boko Haram does not take instruction from the Supreme Council of Islamic Affairs (and that is why the Supreme Council of Islamic Affairs has over and over again, disclaimed the Boko Haram and that is why sometimes, they are said to be fighting even the Islamic groups), if you look at it as a religious sect, then you can say it is not against Jonathan. You can say that it is just a group of religious people who believe wrongly and in their beliefs, are against society. But if you believe that they have some political undertone, that there are political maneouvring going on alongside the Boko Haram insurgency, that is to say that Boko Haram is more or less a tool in the hands of some politicians; then you can say it has something to do with destabilising Jonathan's government.

You can be said to be a citizen of two worlds, having been in the Church and in the military. If the president seeks your opinion on how to tackle this crisis, what advice will you render him?

I know that if the president wants to call me, he will give me a specific situation to judge. It will be too hypothetical to take a general situation in mind. And every situation has its own merits and demerits. So, if he gives me a scenario, I will look at it critically and advise him based on that scenario, on how to respond to it. But on the issue of Boko Haram generally, the government did not consult me and I am not an expert in Boko Haram matters. But since the government has already started negotiating, all we can do is to pray that their effort will bear fruit.

And what fruit are we looking for? Peace. Because, take it or leave it, Nigeria is going through a major setback. The Boko Haram attacks constitute economic setback, social setback, educational setback, infrastructural setback; setback in every area of life. Economic setback in the sense that when people look at what happened in Sokoto, where two foreigners were slaughtered, no wise investor would want to come to Nigeria and spend his money. In fact, the first impression is that the money is not safe and nobody wants to lose huge investment. So, while we are talking about attracting investment, the insecurity in the country is a major discouragement to foreign investors.

Where do you see the security crisis leading us?
Again, it is leading us to unemployment, to irrelevance in the world, because we are 50 years already, 50 plus and yet, we are toddlers. And if we continue like this for a very long time… One major thing is lacking; that is, there is no unity in the country. And if there is no unity in the country, we cannot actually make any progress.

If you notice what is happening, the North will gather and talk about Northern interest and not Nigerian interest. As a reaction, some people will gather in the South and talk about Southern interest. So, the centre is so weak. There is no commitment to the centre. There is no patriotism. In that case, there is no nation yet. So, the type of leadership, government and country that we have now do not inspire hope in the young people.

Where do you situate the problem?
The problem is lack of unity in the country. Those who are holding sectional meetings should stop and talk about Nigeria, because when it is well with the whole of Nigeria, it will be well with everybody. But if we continue this sectional pursuit, we will be on for a very long time, because the sectional pursuit is borne out of the desire to cheat the other side. And because it is borne out of the desire to dominate, the others will resist in one form or the other and we go nowhere. It is like a tug of war: you pull me, I pull you. Nothing is happening.

Do you subscribe to the suggestion by some people that Nigeria should be split into smaller countries?

No. I don't believe in dividing Nigeria.
Don't you think the various issues we're grappling with now can tear us apart?

Now, there are many alternatives. We don't have to divide. We can remain Nigeria under different governmental arrangements. Our leaders in politics can work that out. The type of government we are running now is not true federalism. We can adopt true federalism. We may also settle for any other arrangement. There are other arrangements. But the bottom line is that we must agree. There is no need to fight a war about it. People can sit down and agree in the interest of everybody on how to move forward. But if we continue to force ourselves into a particular straightjacket that will not accommodate us, at least, not comfortably, then we go nowhere.

So, I will not subscribe to dividing the country for one reason, you can't divide Nigeria religiously. In the North, we have millions of Christians and in the South, we have millions of Muslims. So, there is no point. You can't divide it based on Gaddafi's idea of North for Muslim, South for Christians. It doesn't work out that way at all. That is not the demographic reality of Nigeria. That is not. So, we need to find a solution. And those who are boasting and threatening should stop doing it because you don't threaten into reasoning. You don't threaten people into this and that, that they can do like this, that they can go to war. No. That is immaturity. People can sit down and talk maturely and let those who have superior reason win the day.

Still on Boko Haram: is there no way the Islamic leaders can be made to prevail on the group to back down on its rebellion?

If you remember, I have been in a meeting with the Sultan so many times. I have been in a meeting with credible leaders of Islam and they said that these people don't take instruction from them. So, if you are the one and these people don't take instruction from you, you have limited power to influence them.

How do you see the response by the Christian Association of Nigeria (CAN) since the inception of the insurgency?

Well, I am part of the CAN and I think that the leader is leading well. He is leading well because he is leading well under the constraint; spiritual constraint of not calling for a reprisal, not calling for people to kill people, not calling for people… You know that when you are in a handicapped situation, you have your morals, you have your conscience, you have your faith to defend and yet, you are faced with this type of reality demanding something you really don't believe in. That is the awkward situation the president of CAN finds himself. It is contrary to Christian belief to ask Christians to go and kill people, to carry gun and kill people, whether they are your enemy or your friend.

Since the sect keeps attacking churches, what do you think Christians should do?

The Christians are citizens of Nigeria. The main business of government is to protect these citizens. The Christians have no problem with Islam and they have no problem with anybody. They cry to the government, 'Government, you promised to protect us.' That is the contractual agreement between the citizens and government. 'Protect us, we are in danger.' That is the situation. At the moment, Nigeria ought to be faster in its developmental pace but it is not doing that because there are so many side attacks. This insecurity is a major one. The money that the states are spending to solve insecurity problem is enough to provide employment here and there.

Take a good example: you go to a place, the place is bombed, 30, 20, 10 or five people are killed. You have to rebuild that place, clear that place and put the police. You have to feed the police that will be on duty to enforce a curfew. You have to buy more arms. So, the budget for security is rising, negatively. It is not as if we are manufacturing aircraft like jet and all these things. That will be positive because we are going to sell. If we are manufacturing weapon for sale, it is a different thing. But this is negative, completely negative, because it is just to protect people for few days and the whole money is gone. So, if you ask me where the country is heading to, the country is in a crisis situation.

But some people believe that the country is heading towards disaster…

I will hesitate to subscribe to that because I don't wish Nigeria to go into disaster. We have children. It is not too late yet…

To go back to the drawing board?
It is not drawing board. It is not too late to mend what is happening. All it takes is for those who are sponsoring Boko Haram to withdraw in the interest of the overall destiny of Nigeria. But certainly, if they do not withdraw and they continue to sponsor their own interest over and above everybody, then sectional interest cannot win the day. Sectional interest is evil. It will certainly lead the country to where it does not desire.